Comments on: The Cafes Reloaded http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/ Longer than a blog; shorter than a book Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:56:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Elliotte Rusty Harold http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-216 Elliotte Rusty Harold Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:46:45 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-216 1. It's not obvious that that's what one should do. Assuming that that is what one should do, the inboviousness is a bug. 2. Even when one does exaclty that, there's still too much that can go wrong, and too many options to configure. See, for example, <a href="http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/error-image-fetcher-0-uncaught-error-fetching-image/" rel="nofollow">my latest struggles with Eclipse CVS and jEdit</a>. There's no reason for this to be so complex. Part of the complexity does come from a perfect storm of flaws in many systems all trying to work together: <ul> <li>CVS's inability to move a file</li> <li>Sourceforge's overloaded servers that frequently just give up</li> <li>jEdit's poor source tree layout</li> <li>Eclipse's incomprehensible checkout wizard</li> </ul> Individually any of those are surmountable. However together they reinforce each other to turn the whole process into a stew of conficting information. 1. It’s not obvious that that’s what one should do. Assuming that that is what one should do, the inboviousness is a bug.

2. Even when one does exaclty that, there’s still too much that can go wrong, and too many options to configure. See, for example, my latest struggles with Eclipse CVS and jEdit.

There’s no reason for this to be so complex. Part of the complexity does come from a perfect storm of flaws in many systems all trying to work together:

  • CVS’s inability to move a file
  • Sourceforge’s overloaded servers that frequently just give up
  • jEdit’s poor source tree layout
  • Eclipse’s incomprehensible checkout wizard

Individually any of those are surmountable. However together they reinforce each other to turn the whole process into a stew of conficting information.

]]> By: James Abley http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-215 James Abley Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:44:51 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-215 I had another look at this and realised that these days I always use 'Check Out As ...' and the Java Project Wizard, so I don't have tend to have so many issues with it. Have you tried that approach? I had another look at this and realised that these days I always use ‘Check Out As …’ and the Java Project Wizard, so I don’t have tend to have so many issues with it. Have you tried that approach?

]]> By: Elliotte Rusty Harold http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-126 Elliotte Rusty Harold Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:43:30 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-126 Sourceforge CVS is notoriously flaky. I often have to try several times over a few hours before I connect successfully. I actually wouldn't suggest capturing what it is that bothers you about the current process as the first step. That presumes that a little change, a nip here and a tuck there, would fix the problem. I think the problem is much deeper than that. I would suggest instead designing an approach to CVS checkout from a blank screen and then ripping out the current CVS checkout and replacing it with a completely new interface. Sourceforge CVS is notoriously flaky. I often have to try several times over a few hours before I connect successfully.

I actually wouldn’t suggest capturing what it is that bothers you about the current process as the first step. That presumes that a little change, a nip here and a tuck there, would fix the problem. I think the problem is much deeper than that.

I would suggest instead designing an approach to CVS checkout from a blank screen and then ripping out the current CVS checkout and replacing it with a completely new interface.

]]> By: James Abley http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-125 James Abley Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:41:40 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-125 I wanted to check out jedit just to think about the process I go through, rather than just click through it, but unfortunately I've not been able to connect to SourceForge CVS for the last couple of days. I agree that it can probably be improved, but I'd need to capture and articulate what it is about the process that bothers me, and then contribute a patch or log it with Eclipse Bugzilla. I wanted to check out jedit just to think about the process I go through, rather than just click through it, but unfortunately I’ve not been able to connect to SourceForge CVS for the last couple of days. I agree that it can probably be improved, but I’d need to capture and articulate what it is about the process that bothers me, and then contribute a patch or log it with Eclipse Bugzilla.

]]> By: Elliotte Rusty Harold http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-120 Elliotte Rusty Harold Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:22:40 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-120 The problem with Eclipse is that I end up with a confusing mess of files, none of which are properly recognized and sorted into their right places in the source hierarchy. For instance, a class like com.foo.bar.Example might be loaded instead as src.com.foo.bar.Example or foo.bar.Example. Some of the files aren't even recognized as Java files. Sometimes I get caught in an infinite loop of being asked to reconfigure the project; and just have to nuke everything and start over. :-( I'm sure there's a way to do this right, but the new project from CVS setup in Eclipse 3 is so confusing and poorly designed that's it's pretty much guaranteed no one will figure it out. The whole CVS checkout process needs a complete rethink. Options should be eliminated. User configuration should be minimized. Ideally it should require nothing more than filling in a couple of obvious fields and pressing a button. FYI, this is not a SourceForge specific issue in any way. Codehaus, java.net, and other CVS repositories have the exact same issues. The problem with Eclipse is that I end up with a confusing mess of files, none of which are properly recognized and sorted into their right places in the source hierarchy. For instance, a class like com.foo.bar.Example might be loaded instead as src.com.foo.bar.Example or foo.bar.Example. Some of the files aren’t even recognized as Java files. Sometimes I get caught in an infinite loop of being asked to reconfigure the project; and just have to nuke everything and start over. :-(

I’m sure there’s a way to do this right, but the new project from CVS setup in Eclipse 3 is so confusing and poorly designed that’s it’s pretty much guaranteed no one will figure it out. The whole CVS checkout process needs a complete rethink. Options should be eliminated. User configuration should be minimized. Ideally it should require nothing more than filling in a couple of obvious fields and pressing a button.

FYI, this is not a SourceForge specific issue in any way. Codehaus, java.net, and other CVS repositories have the exact same issues.

]]> By: James Abley http://cafe.elharo.com/blogroll/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-119 James Abley Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:46:10 +0000 http://minicafe.elharo.com/java/the-cafes-reloaded/#comment-119 Hi Elliotte, Could you provide more detail as to the issues you hit using Eclipse and SourceForge CVS? I can't think of any problems I've had with it apart from having to configure source path and classpath entries. Feel free to contact me directly. James Hi Elliotte,

Could you provide more detail as to the issues you hit using Eclipse and SourceForge CVS? I can’t think of any problems I’ve had with it apart from having to configure source path and classpath entries.

Feel free to contact me directly.

James

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