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	<title>Comments on: OpenLaszlo vs. GWT</title>
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	<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/</link>
	<description>Longer than a blog; shorter than a book</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Lluis Martinez</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-116221</link>
		<dc:creator>Lluis Martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-116221</guid>
		<description>[quote]
Ultimately what Laszlo really looked like was a way to embed a full-blown thick-client GUI into a web browser using Flash or DHTML. Itâ€™s an impressive trick, but itâ€™s not really what I want to do. Iâ€™ve already got Java for that.
[/quote]

As far as I know, the Laszlo engine works in the server side by compiling the UI definition XML into Flash or DHTML/JavaScript objects. To run an applet you need the whole JVM in the client. With Laszlo (and Flex) the only VM required is Flash player, a de facto standard.

I agree with you about the JS generated by GWT, it looks like garbage to me and it's a negative point for GWT. On the other hand, I prefer to define the UI in Swing-style instead of XML. But for tastes there are colors :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[quote]<br />
Ultimately what Laszlo really looked like was a way to embed a full-blown thick-client GUI into a web browser using Flash or DHTML. Itâ€™s an impressive trick, but itâ€™s not really what I want to do. Iâ€™ve already got Java for that.<br />
[/quote]</p>
<p>As far as I know, the Laszlo engine works in the server side by compiling the UI definition XML into Flash or DHTML/JavaScript objects. To run an applet you need the whole JVM in the client. With Laszlo (and Flex) the only VM required is Flash player, a de facto standard.</p>
<p>I agree with you about the JS generated by GWT, it looks like garbage to me and it&#8217;s a negative point for GWT. On the other hand, I prefer to define the UI in Swing-style instead of XML. But for tastes there are colors <img src='http://cafe.elharo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Marco Lettere</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-100226</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco Lettere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-100226</guid>
		<description>We're trying to build a compiler that auto-generates form based web applications according to specific models. The power of having a declarative language (XML) that wraps up all the GUI structuring code in a naturally recursive way is very helpful. We thought about trying the GWT way but generating Java code is way more complex than generating XML code. Thus we tried to integrate GWT with XForms and though this solution could be employed to obtain results similar to Laszlo (at least in terms of forms functionality) it is clearly more complex to implement and it seems very difficult to even approach the graphical beauty of a laszlo application.
My two cents: GWT is cool, XForms is cool, Laszlo is cool. Having that much choices is even cooler...
M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re trying to build a compiler that auto-generates form based web applications according to specific models. The power of having a declarative language (XML) that wraps up all the GUI structuring code in a naturally recursive way is very helpful. We thought about trying the GWT way but generating Java code is way more complex than generating XML code. Thus we tried to integrate GWT with XForms and though this solution could be employed to obtain results similar to Laszlo (at least in terms of forms functionality) it is clearly more complex to implement and it seems very difficult to even approach the graphical beauty of a laszlo application.<br />
My two cents: GWT is cool, XForms is cool, Laszlo is cool. Having that much choices is even cooler&#8230;<br />
M.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Weerasak.com &#187; Article: OpenLaszlo vs. GWT</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-99395</link>
		<dc:creator>Weerasak.com &#187; Article: OpenLaszlo vs. GWT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-99395</guid>
		<description>[...] OpenLaszlo vs. GWT by Elliotte Rusty Harold Bottom line though: the next time I need to do some heavy lifting in AJAX Iâ€™m going to turn to GWT. It fits the way I think, and it uses familiar tools and languages. Doubtless as I dig deeper into it, I will find flaws. I always do. However it seems like a really nice 80/20 solution with the right hooks to escape out for a 99/1 system. OpenLaszlo just leaves me confused. Iâ€™m not saying it isnâ€™t the better solution, but it certainly feels like the one with the much steeper learning curve. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] OpenLaszlo vs. GWT by Elliotte Rusty Harold Bottom line though: the next time I need to do some heavy lifting in AJAX Iâ€™m going to turn to GWT. It fits the way I think, and it uses familiar tools and languages. Doubtless as I dig deeper into it, I will find flaws. I always do. However it seems like a really nice 80/20 solution with the right hooks to escape out for a 99/1 system. OpenLaszlo just leaves me confused. Iâ€™m not saying it isnâ€™t the better solution, but it certainly feels like the one with the much steeper learning curve. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: All in a days work&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-84101</link>
		<dc:creator>All in a days work&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-84101</guid>
		<description>[...] OpenLaszlo vs. GWT - On Laszlo vs Flex, their first answer was, â€œFlex isnâ€™t open sourceâ€&#38;#8230... I like XML; I like Java; and if Iâ€™ve taken enough drugs, sometimes I even like JavaScript. However mixing them together in the same program just seems like a really bad idea. Laszlo: a way to embed a full-blown thick-client GUI into a browser using Flas (tags: OpenLaszlo GWT) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] OpenLaszlo vs. GWT - On Laszlo vs Flex, their first answer was, â€œFlex isnâ€™t open sourceâ€&amp;#8230&#8230; I like XML; I like Java; and if Iâ€™ve taken enough drugs, sometimes I even like JavaScript. However mixing them together in the same program just seems like a really bad idea. Laszlo: a way to embed a full-blown thick-client GUI into a browser using Flas (tags: OpenLaszlo GWT) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Stewart</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-83162</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-83162</guid>
		<description>Hey Elliotte, thanks for taking the time to do the writeup. Great to see what people think of GWT vs. Laszlo from an objective viewpoint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Elliotte, thanks for taking the time to do the writeup. Great to see what people think of GWT vs. Laszlo from an objective viewpoint.</p>
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		<title>By: raju</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82460</link>
		<dc:creator>raju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82460</guid>
		<description>For Java people the GWT is pretty attractive: familiar tools and languages! That's a big advantage. But don't forget: OpenLaszlo has been one of the pioneers for building rich Internet applications and has come up with some very impressive applications, including Laszlo Mail and the newly realesed Webtop.

Here's what Gartner had to say about Laszlo, which was listes as one of the "Cool Vendors in Application Development 2007":

"OpenLaszlo is cool because it is the only RIA platform in which developers can define the user
interface in a declarative (nonprocedural) manner and target different runtime environments,
including Ajax, Flash and Java 2 Platform, Micro Edition (Java for mobile devices). Although
many vendors are using a declarative XML representation for the interface (including Adobe,
Microsoft and Nexaweb), no other vendor enables this XML to be rendered to as many different
runtimes."

The XML + EcmaScript approach is a very modern approach of interface development. Many of the best Ajax Toolkits followed the approach of OpenLaszlo and came up with similar concepts, not to forget Adobe and Microsoft here. I've been building Laszlo applications very effectively with OpenLaszlo and never ran into any problems. I don't think Java is the one language we should use for everything connected to programming. There a better and more modern concepts evolving, but of course everyone is free to chose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Java people the GWT is pretty attractive: familiar tools and languages! That&#8217;s a big advantage. But don&#8217;t forget: OpenLaszlo has been one of the pioneers for building rich Internet applications and has come up with some very impressive applications, including Laszlo Mail and the newly realesed Webtop.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what Gartner had to say about Laszlo, which was listes as one of the &#8220;Cool Vendors in Application Development 2007&#8243;:</p>
<p>&#8220;OpenLaszlo is cool because it is the only RIA platform in which developers can define the user<br />
interface in a declarative (nonprocedural) manner and target different runtime environments,<br />
including Ajax, Flash and Java 2 Platform, Micro Edition (Java for mobile devices). Although<br />
many vendors are using a declarative XML representation for the interface (including Adobe,<br />
Microsoft and Nexaweb), no other vendor enables this XML to be rendered to as many different<br />
runtimes.&#8221;</p>
<p>The XML + EcmaScript approach is a very modern approach of interface development. Many of the best Ajax Toolkits followed the approach of OpenLaszlo and came up with similar concepts, not to forget Adobe and Microsoft here. I&#8217;ve been building Laszlo applications very effectively with OpenLaszlo and never ran into any problems. I don&#8217;t think Java is the one language we should use for everything connected to programming. There a better and more modern concepts evolving, but of course everyone is free to chose.</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot Winard</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82246</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot Winard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82246</guid>
		<description>GWT looks like a great way for Java developers to develop AJAX apps using tools they're already familiar with.  I hope that Robb and I didn't come off as anti-GWT and don't think that Joel Webber was very anti-OpenLaszlo. 

It's a matter of preference and different tools are better for doing different tasks.  Although it's certainly possible, I wouldn't use Java to build something that can be done more easily with 2 lines sh script.  I also wouldn't write a shell script to handle my company's business logic.  I find it much more fun and faster to develop web apps using OpenLaszlo's LZX than working with lower-level languages like Java.  Perhaps I've "taken enough drugs"?  :P

Regarding the RESTian nature of Laszlo apps - Admitedly, bookmarking is a tricky thing to do in a non page-based AJAX applications.  Because most Laszlo apps are not page-based, it's tough to generalize a solution.  The Laszlo apps that I build consume REST services and a few of them are deep-linkable.  Maybe I'll post a bit of sample code so it's easier to make more RESTafarian web apps.

Laszlo's been open source for over 2 years and can now target different runtimes - currently DHTML/AJAX and the Flash player.  JavaME compiler is in progress.  Adobe made a smart move by open-sourcing Flex. 

Robb showed off our fancy new stuff first and probably should have started with a HelloWorld! app.  Here's one -- &#60;canvas&#62;&#60;text&#62;Hello World!&#60;/text&#62;&#60;/canvas&#62;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GWT looks like a great way for Java developers to develop AJAX apps using tools they&#8217;re already familiar with.  I hope that Robb and I didn&#8217;t come off as anti-GWT and don&#8217;t think that Joel Webber was very anti-OpenLaszlo. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a matter of preference and different tools are better for doing different tasks.  Although it&#8217;s certainly possible, I wouldn&#8217;t use Java to build something that can be done more easily with 2 lines sh script.  I also wouldn&#8217;t write a shell script to handle my company&#8217;s business logic.  I find it much more fun and faster to develop web apps using OpenLaszlo&#8217;s LZX than working with lower-level languages like Java.  Perhaps I&#8217;ve &#8220;taken enough drugs&#8221;?  <img src='http://cafe.elharo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Regarding the RESTian nature of Laszlo apps - Admitedly, bookmarking is a tricky thing to do in a non page-based AJAX applications.  Because most Laszlo apps are not page-based, it&#8217;s tough to generalize a solution.  The Laszlo apps that I build consume REST services and a few of them are deep-linkable.  Maybe I&#8217;ll post a bit of sample code so it&#8217;s easier to make more RESTafarian web apps.</p>
<p>Laszlo&#8217;s been open source for over 2 years and can now target different runtimes - currently DHTML/AJAX and the Flash player.  JavaME compiler is in progress.  Adobe made a smart move by open-sourcing Flex. </p>
<p>Robb showed off our fancy new stuff first and probably should have started with a HelloWorld! app.  Here&#8217;s one &#8212; &lt;canvas&gt;&lt;text&gt;Hello World!&lt;/text&gt;&lt;/canvas&gt;</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Kirkham</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82103</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Kirkham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82103</guid>
		<description>During XTech 2006, whilst apologising for the XML mark-up used to describe UI widgets, the member of the OpenLaszlo team giving the presentation indicated it was due to the person designing it having only experience of MFC as a window tool kit. So there's at least three things wrong with it for a start - don't release code you feel a need to apologise for, accept collective responsibility, practice peer review before committing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During XTech 2006, whilst apologising for the XML mark-up used to describe UI widgets, the member of the OpenLaszlo team giving the presentation indicated it was due to the person designing it having only experience of MFC as a window tool kit. So there&#8217;s at least three things wrong with it for a start - don&#8217;t release code you feel a need to apologise for, accept collective responsibility, practice peer review before committing.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Ellsworth</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82096</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Ellsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82096</guid>
		<description>Ugo is correct.  There is a detailed mode appropriate for use with Venkman, and a squirrelly mode (ok, obfuscated) designed to be compressed down.  Each version of GWT has made the obfuscated code more terse and more human-unreadable, so while developing, I usually leave it set to detailed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ugo is correct.  There is a detailed mode appropriate for use with Venkman, and a squirrelly mode (ok, obfuscated) designed to be compressed down.  Each version of GWT has made the obfuscated code more terse and more human-unreadable, so while developing, I usually leave it set to detailed.</p>
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		<title>By: Ugo Cei</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82068</link>
		<dc:creator>Ugo Cei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/web/openlaszlo-vs-gwt/#comment-82068</guid>
		<description>I think with GWT you have the option of generating either "clean" Javascript for debugging or compressed Javascript for obfuscation or efficiency when in production.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think with GWT you have the option of generating either &#8220;clean&#8221; Javascript for debugging or compressed Javascript for obfuscation or efficiency when in production.</p>
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