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	<title>Comments on: Must Ignore vs. Microformats</title>
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	<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/</link>
	<description>Longer than a blog; shorter than a book</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-214761</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-214761</guid>
		<description>Nice article. I like reading the reasons not to use something as well as to use. I think you have Homeopathy and Herbal Medicine mixed up. They aren't the same as far as I can tell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article. I like reading the reasons not to use something as well as to use. I think you have Homeopathy and Herbal Medicine mixed up. They aren&#8217;t the same as far as I can tell.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-173349</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-173349</guid>
		<description>Hi Elliotte,

&lt;blockquote&gt;If a supermarket labels a package of pork by-products as rib-eye steak, does that make it beef? Vice versa, if it labels a rib-eye steak as pig snouts, does that make it pork?

The &lt;acronym&gt;MIME&lt;/acronym&gt; type does not determine whether or not a given data stream is &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt;. If the stream is well-formed according to the &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt; 1.0 specification, then it is &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt;&#8230;

Labels such as &lt;acronym&gt;MIME&lt;/acronym&gt; types and file extensions suggest to applications (including web browsers) how they might choose to interpret a given sequence of bytes; but they do not determine the nature of those byte sequences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your analogy breaks down because the &lt;acronym&gt;MIME&lt;/acronym&gt; type isn't just a hint as to the contents of a file &#8212; it is the only reliable indicator of how a document should be treated.

If you serve an &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt; document as text, &lt;strong&gt;it is not an &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt; document&lt;/strong&gt; so far as your browser is concerned, nor does the server intend your browser to treat it as such. For example, let's say I serve you the following comment as a plain text document:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&#60;sarcasm&#62;IE 4 is a *really* great browser for the modern day...&#60;/sarcasm&#62;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

All fine and dandy, if your browser follows the simple imperative I delivered by indicating the &lt;acronym&gt;MIME&lt;/acronym&gt;. However, if your browser declares, "Aha! This looks like &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt;, so that's how I will parse it," what exactly is it going to deliver to the end user in place of my actual comment? Are they going to see the "sarcasm" tag I used purely for effect, and which was an important part of my message?

As for &lt;abbr&gt;XHTML&lt;/abbr&gt; content, serving it as pure &lt;abbr&gt;XML&lt;/abbr&gt; should remove any default formatting from every element, something which will generally have unpleasant implications for most stylesheets, which take such formatting into account. Serving a document designed to be served as &lt;code&gt;text/html&lt;/code&gt; as &lt;code&gt;application/xhtml+xml&lt;/code&gt; has a slew of implications for how any scripts or stylesheets associated with a document should be written.

To reiterate, the &lt;acronym&gt;MIME&lt;/acronym&gt; type isn't just a hint, it's the only reliable way to know how to parse and display any document.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Elliotte,</p>
<blockquote><p>If a supermarket labels a package of pork by-products as rib-eye steak, does that make it beef? Vice versa, if it labels a rib-eye steak as pig snouts, does that make it pork?</p>
<p>The <acronym>MIME</acronym> type does not determine whether or not a given data stream is <abbr>XML</abbr>. If the stream is well-formed according to the <abbr>XML</abbr> 1.0 specification, then it is <abbr>XML</abbr>&#8230;</p>
<p>Labels such as <acronym>MIME</acronym> types and file extensions suggest to applications (including web browsers) how they might choose to interpret a given sequence of bytes; but they do not determine the nature of those byte sequences.</p></blockquote>
<p>Your analogy breaks down because the <acronym>MIME</acronym> type isn&#8217;t just a hint as to the contents of a file &#8212; it is the only reliable indicator of how a document should be treated.</p>
<p>If you serve an <abbr>XML</abbr> document as text, <strong>it is not an <abbr>XML</abbr> document</strong> so far as your browser is concerned, nor does the server intend your browser to treat it as such. For example, let&#8217;s say I serve you the following comment as a plain text document:</p>
<blockquote><p>&lt;sarcasm&gt;IE 4 is a *really* great browser for the modern day&#8230;&lt;/sarcasm&gt;</p></blockquote>
<p>All fine and dandy, if your browser follows the simple imperative I delivered by indicating the <acronym>MIME</acronym>. However, if your browser declares, &#8220;Aha! This looks like <abbr>XML</abbr>, so that&#8217;s how I will parse it,&#8221; what exactly is it going to deliver to the end user in place of my actual comment? Are they going to see the &#8220;sarcasm&#8221; tag I used purely for effect, and which was an important part of my message?</p>
<p>As for <abbr>XHTML</abbr> content, serving it as pure <abbr>XML</abbr> should remove any default formatting from every element, something which will generally have unpleasant implications for most stylesheets, which take such formatting into account. Serving a document designed to be served as <code>text/html</code> as <code>application/xhtml+xml</code> has a slew of implications for how any scripts or stylesheets associated with a document should be written.</p>
<p>To reiterate, the <acronym>MIME</acronym> type isn&#8217;t just a hint, it&#8217;s the only reliable way to know how to parse and display any document.</p>
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		<title>By: digital.flowstate.org</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-109853</link>
		<dc:creator>digital.flowstate.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-109853</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Go DTD-less&lt;/strong&gt;


Anybody who views the XHTML source of this page will see that there's an XML declaration (XHTML is XML, after all) but no doctype declaration. A doctype declaration may have usefulness in HTML, but it is needless in XHTML. I am so glad Rusty Elliott...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Go DTD-less</strong></p>
<p>Anybody who views the XHTML source of this page will see that there&#8217;s an XML declaration (XHTML is XML, after all) but no doctype declaration. A doctype declaration may have usefulness in HTML, but it is needless in XHTML. I am so glad Rusty Elliott&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: digital.flowstate.org</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-109852</link>
		<dc:creator>digital.flowstate.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-109852</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Serendipity and XHTML&lt;/strong&gt;


I learned about XHTML a long time ago, but I'll admit that it hasn't been that long since I learned that XHTML should be served with a MIME type of application/xhtml+xml. I went ahead and converted a separate blog I run to use XHTML with the proper...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Serendipity and XHTML</strong></p>
<p>I learned about XHTML a long time ago, but I&#8217;ll admit that it hasn&#8217;t been that long since I learned that XHTML should be served with a MIME type of application/xhtml+xml. I went ahead and converted a separate blog I run to use XHTML with the proper&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: I Think It&#8217;s Interesting &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Microformats are Web 2.0 virus</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-92155</link>
		<dc:creator>I Think It&#8217;s Interesting &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Microformats are Web 2.0 virus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 22:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-92155</guid>
		<description>[...] is also a more interesting post Must Ignore vs. Microformats by Elliotte Rusty Harold. The one point I do not agree is that Elliotte argues that XML does not [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is also a more interesting post Must Ignore vs. Microformats by Elliotte Rusty Harold. The one point I do not agree is that Elliotte argues that XML does not [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: whodat</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-45159</link>
		<dc:creator>whodat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 07:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-45159</guid>
		<description>&#62;&#62;&#62; Pete Prodoehl Says: Your page at http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml isnâ€™t valid. 
&#62;&#62;&#62; Itâ€™s got 399 errors. At least with Microformats we can write valid XHTML, which, 
&#62;&#62;&#62; if youâ€™ve ever tried to debug HTML/CSS issues, is pretty darn important. 

debug html/css?  use the EYES html/css debugger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt; Pete Prodoehl Says: Your page at <a href="http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.cafeaulait.org');" rel="nofollow">http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml</a> isnâ€™t valid.<br />
&gt;&gt;&gt; Itâ€™s got 399 errors. At least with Microformats we can write valid XHTML, which,<br />
&gt;&gt;&gt; if youâ€™ve ever tried to debug HTML/CSS issues, is pretty darn important. </p>
<p>debug html/css?  use the EYES html/css debugger.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Allen</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-34156</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 03:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-34156</guid>
		<description>With regard to homeopathy, last I heard, the history of science tended to show that empirical results trumps our "understanding" of what makes sense.  Homeopathy works, well enough and benignly enough, that many quite rational people prefer homeopathic remedies to the "patent medicine du jour" for some situations.

As to the XML discussion, I prefer YAML myself.

rationality is overrated
Craig</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to homeopathy, last I heard, the history of science tended to show that empirical results trumps our &#8220;understanding&#8221; of what makes sense.  Homeopathy works, well enough and benignly enough, that many quite rational people prefer homeopathic remedies to the &#8220;patent medicine du jour&#8221; for some situations.</p>
<p>As to the XML discussion, I prefer YAML myself.</p>
<p>rationality is overrated<br />
Craig</p>
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		<title>By: Holger Will</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-9076</link>
		<dc:creator>Holger Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-9076</guid>
		<description>Hi Elliotte,

Thank you very much for this informative article! I just want to add some points, which may be the source for some misconceptions of some of the commenters.

First of all having XML data-islands in XHTML is completely valid, its just that DTD can't handle them properly; that is, if you try to validate a combound document with a DTD, it will give you false negatives ( the validator shows an error, even if there is none ). Just consider DTDs as deprecated, since the W3C now uses RelaxNG instead of DTDs.

Second and more importantly, in a moderns XML world, you don't have simple plain HTML documents, but instead you have document fragments in different namespaces  mixed into another ( http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/ ). A namespace aware browser treats a fragment in the XHTML namespace as XHTML, so it doesn't matter much what MIME type you use ( as long as its an XML MIME type), that is the type of document is completely irrelevant.

And as a third argument, people seem to forget  that there are different languages you can use, but microfomats only work in (x)HTML. a "macroformat" can be used in
any other XML based language, without any change.

I've written a very simple example of a bar chart ( as a prove of concept ), which can be used in XHTML, SVG, XSL-FO, standalone or any other XML vocabulary, without changing the data or the stylesheet.( http://www.treebuilder.de/default.asp?file=306286.xml ) 

Examples of well known and widely supported "macroformats" that come to mind are
the &lt;a href="http://creativecommons.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;CC license stuff&lt;/a&gt; and the &lt;a href="http://dublincore.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Dublin Core vocabulary&lt;/a&gt;.

cheers
Holger</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Elliotte,</p>
<p>Thank you very much for this informative article! I just want to add some points, which may be the source for some misconceptions of some of the commenters.</p>
<p>First of all having XML data-islands in XHTML is completely valid, its just that DTD can&#8217;t handle them properly; that is, if you try to validate a combound document with a DTD, it will give you false negatives ( the validator shows an error, even if there is none ). Just consider DTDs as deprecated, since the W3C now uses RelaxNG instead of DTDs.</p>
<p>Second and more importantly, in a moderns XML world, you don&#8217;t have simple plain HTML documents, but instead you have document fragments in different namespaces  mixed into another ( <a href="http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.w3.org');" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/</a> ). A namespace aware browser treats a fragment in the XHTML namespace as XHTML, so it doesn&#8217;t matter much what MIME type you use ( as long as its an XML MIME type), that is the type of document is completely irrelevant.</p>
<p>And as a third argument, people seem to forget  that there are different languages you can use, but microfomats only work in (x)HTML. a &#8220;macroformat&#8221; can be used in<br />
any other XML based language, without any change.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written a very simple example of a bar chart ( as a prove of concept ), which can be used in XHTML, SVG, XSL-FO, standalone or any other XML vocabulary, without changing the data or the stylesheet.( <a href="http://www.treebuilder.de/default.asp?file=306286.xml" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.treebuilder.de');" rel="nofollow">http://www.treebuilder.de/default.asp?file=306286.xml</a> ) </p>
<p>Examples of well known and widely supported &#8220;macroformats&#8221; that come to mind are<br />
the <a href="http://creativecommons.org/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/creativecommons.org');" rel="nofollow">CC license stuff</a> and the <a href="http://dublincore.org/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/dublincore.org');" rel="nofollow">Dublin Core vocabulary</a>.</p>
<p>cheers<br />
Holger</p>
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		<title>By: Semantic Web Links 08-08-06 at pixelsebi&#8217;s repository</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-9053</link>
		<dc:creator>Semantic Web Links 08-08-06 at pixelsebi&#8217;s repository</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-9053</guid>
		<description>[...] Must Ignore vs. Microformats - Ein Artikel fÃ¼r Macroformate und gegen Mikroformate. Vor allem die Comments sollte man nach dem Artikel noch lesen. Einen Kommentar dazu wird es von mir definitiv bei Zeiten auch noch geben. Vielleicht auch eher im Podcast. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Must Ignore vs. Microformats - Ein Artikel fÃ¼r Macroformate und gegen Mikroformate. Vor allem die Comments sollte man nach dem Artikel noch lesen. Einen Kommentar dazu wird es von mir definitiv bei Zeiten auch noch geben. Vielleicht auch eher im Podcast. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Elliotte Rusty Harold</title>
		<link>http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-8597</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliotte Rusty Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 13:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/must-ignore-vs-microformats/#comment-8597</guid>
		<description>The page at Your page at http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml isn't HTML. It's raw XML. Validity is completely unnecessary in this case. I suspect you just passed the page to an HTML validator. That makes about as much sense as testing a German Shepherd for compliance with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration standards for automobiles.

Debugging XML/CSS issues is much easier than debugging HTML/CSS issues because the browser doesn't have any preconceptions about how it should or should not display any given element. It's all in the style sheet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The page at Your page at <a href="http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.cafeaulait.org');" rel="nofollow">http://www.cafeaulait.org/tradeshows.xml</a> isn&#8217;t HTML. It&#8217;s raw XML. Validity is completely unnecessary in this case. I suspect you just passed the page to an HTML validator. That makes about as much sense as testing a German Shepherd for compliance with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration standards for automobiles.</p>
<p>Debugging XML/CSS issues is much easier than debugging HTML/CSS issues because the browser doesn&#8217;t have any preconceptions about how it should or should not display any given element. It&#8217;s all in the style sheet.</p>
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