Comments on: RELAX Wins http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/ Longer than a blog; shorter than a book Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:17:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Mokka mit Schlag » REST Pessimists http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-222271 Mokka mit Schlag » REST Pessimists Fri, 02 May 2008 16:01:13 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-222271 [...] people have started to push back on the REST vs. WS-* and RELAX vs. W3C XSD and Rails vs. JEE fronts with a self-defeating argument. Well, of course, you’re right they [...] […] people have started to push back on the REST vs. WS-* and RELAX vs. W3C XSD and Rails vs. JEE fronts with a self-defeating argument. Well, of course, you’re right they […]

]]> By: Buz Cory http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-65847 Buz Cory Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:50:12 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-65847 In the tool chain area, what would be lovely would be a plugin for ViM that would not only recognize well-formed XML (and mark stuff that is not well-formed) but could read, parse, and implement the schema that was supposed to be used to validate the schema. In particular, both distinctive highlighting for invalid content (as well as failure to be well-formed XML) and a means to get context-sensitive choices for content would be extremely helpful and productivity enhancing. It would turn ViM into a real XML editor! Does anyone reading this know of such a plugin? If so, please send a note to <tmu-hack at buzco dot nyct.net>. In the tool chain area, what would be lovely would be a plugin for ViM that would not only recognize well-formed XML (and mark stuff that is not well-formed) but could read, parse, and implement the schema that was supposed to be used to validate the schema.

In particular, both distinctive highlighting for invalid content (as well as failure to be well-formed XML) and a means to get context-sensitive choices for content would be extremely helpful and productivity enhancing.

It would turn ViM into a real XML editor!

Does anyone reading this know of such a plugin?

If so, please send a note to <tmu-hack at buzco dot nyct.net>.

]]> By: Buz Cory http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-65845 Buz Cory Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:38:47 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-65845 Unfortunately, in general, there is a tendency in both the corporate and free software world to continue using a familiar language rather than learn a new (though better) language. Otherwise Ada would have won out over (Ugh!) (C, C++, Java), etc long ago. IMHO, <em>NO</em> project starting or undergoing major rewrite should use any language than Ada. Similarly, simple inertial will keep XSD alive for a long time. Further, Relax NG <em>depends</em> on XSD for data content validation. Further, the fixation of the 800# gorillas on <em>this quarter</em> profits over long range profits will contribute to this inertia. Unfortunately, in general, there is a tendency in both the corporate and free software world to continue using a familiar language rather than learn a new (though better) language.

Otherwise Ada would have won out over (Ugh!) (C, C++, Java), etc long ago. IMHO, NO project starting or undergoing major rewrite should use any language than Ada.

Similarly, simple inertial will keep XSD alive for a long time.

Further, Relax NG depends on XSD for data content validation.

Further, the fixation of the 800# gorillas on this quarter profits over long range profits will contribute to this inertia.

]]> By: Marc de Graauw - Random Notes » Blog Archive » Validate for Machines, not Humans http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-40856 Marc de Graauw - Random Notes » Blog Archive » Validate for Machines, not Humans Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:46:39 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-40856 [...] Surprisingly though, we’re not picking on any one particular validation technology. XML Schema has been getting its fair share of bad press, and rightly so, but for different reasons than we’re going to talk about here. We believe that virtually all forms of validation, as commonly practiced, are harmful; an anathema to use at Web scale.” [...] […] Surprisingly though, we’re not picking on any one particular validation technology. XML Schema has been getting its fair share of bad press, and rightly so, but for different reasons than we’re going to talk about here. We believe that virtually all forms of validation, as commonly practiced, are harmful; an anathema to use at Web scale.” […]

]]> By: Torbjörn Gannholm http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-39273 Torbjörn Gannholm Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:09:34 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-39273 XML Schemas should never have been invented, they are the products of lesser souls who are frightened by the power of XML. However, RelaxNG is not perfect to my mind either. That is why I have published http://tobe.homelinux.net/xis as an attempt to create an even more useful way of defining XML information models. Sorely needs peer review, though. Anyone wish to contact me about this, please do at my.name at gmail.com (leave out the dots on the o) XML Schemas should never have been invented, they are the products of lesser souls who are frightened by the power of XML.

However, RelaxNG is not perfect to my mind either.

That is why I have published http://tobe.homelinux.net/xis as an attempt to create an even more useful way of defining XML information models. Sorely needs peer review, though.

Anyone wish to contact me about this, please do at my.name at gmail.com (leave out the dots on the o)

]]> By: Camouflage » Apocalypto: The (Tactical Police Gear) Most Powerful Film Of All Time http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-37233 Camouflage » Apocalypto: The (Tactical Police Gear) Most Powerful Film Of All Time Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:49:14 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-37233 [...] Tim Bray - Every time I’ve looked at an XSD for describing an XML schema, I’ve felt repelled, as if by a millimeter wave weapon. Tim Bray, and Eliotte Rusty Harold, and others linked from Mr. Bray’s post, agree, that RELAX NG is a better schema description language. Slashdot discussion. [/.] [...] […] Tim Bray - Every time I’ve looked at an XSD for describing an XML schema, I’ve felt repelled, as if by a millimeter wave weapon. Tim Bray, and Eliotte Rusty Harold, and others linked from Mr. Bray’s post, agree, that RELAX NG is a better schema description language. Slashdot discussion. [/.] […]

]]> By: Integrate This»Blog Archive » Validation considered harmful http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-36806 Integrate This»Blog Archive » Validation considered harmful Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:08:46 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-36806 [...] Surprisingly though, I’m not picking on any one particular validation technology. XML Schema has been getting its fair share of bad press, and rightly so, but for different reasons than we’re going to talk about here. We believe that virtually all forms of validation, as commonly practiced, are harmful; an anathema to use at Web scale. Specifically, our argument is this; Tests of validity which are a function of time make the independent evolution of software problematic. [...] […] Surprisingly though, I’m not picking on any one particular validation technology. XML Schema has been getting its fair share of bad press, and rightly so, but for different reasons than we’re going to talk about here. We believe that virtually all forms of validation, as commonly practiced, are harmful; an anathema to use at Web scale. Specifically, our argument is this; Tests of validity which are a function of time make the independent evolution of software problematic. […]

]]> By: Christian Nentwich http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34974 Christian Nentwich Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:01:57 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34974 I continue to appreciate the good work that has been done on RELAX and the enlightened discussions of folks on xml-dev. However, I also continue to be dismayed by how far from reality a lot of this stuff is. "I don’t know of a single project in the last couple of years that considered both RELAX NG and W3C Schemas and chose to go with the latter". I would counter with: I don't know a single project in the last years that I have seen out in industry that _has considered RELAX_! As Joe72 rightly points out, people are using XML Schema for data modeling. It does happen to make a good data model, with some caveats, if you have good tool support. And as for Len's comment above, "It could mean some serious rework for some organizations, but it will be worth it.". I want to see how anybody stands up in front of a bottom line driven organisation and makes a believable business case how spending time converting to another schema language will make more money or cut costs, especially if all staff involved have to be retrained and recruiting is substantially complicated. I continue to appreciate the good work that has been done on RELAX and the enlightened discussions of folks on xml-dev.

However, I also continue to be dismayed by how far from reality a lot of this stuff is. “I don’t know of a single project in the last couple of years that considered both RELAX NG and W3C Schemas and chose to go with the latter”. I would counter with: I don’t know a single project in the last years that I have seen out in industry that _has considered RELAX_!

As Joe72 rightly points out, people are using XML Schema for data modeling. It does happen to make a good data model, with some caveats, if you have good tool support.

And as for Len’s comment above, “It could mean some serious rework for some organizations, but it will be worth it.”. I want to see how anybody stands up in front of a bottom line driven organisation and makes a believable business case how spending time converting to another schema language will make more money or cut costs, especially if all staff involved have to be retrained and recruiting is substantially complicated.

]]> By: Graegert.com - » XML Developers Reject W3C Schemas for Relax NG http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34925 Graegert.com - » XML Developers Reject W3C Schemas for Relax NG Tue, 05 Dec 2006 15:11:23 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34925 [...] Proponents of RELAX NG - which stands for REgular LAnguage for XML Next Generation - point out that it is already a recognised ISO Standard: ISO/IEC 19757, Part 2. [...] […] Proponents of RELAX NG - which stands for REgular LAnguage for XML Next Generation - point out that it is already a recognised ISO Standard: ISO/IEC 19757, Part 2. […]

]]> By: Married… with children » RELAX NG Wins http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34917 Married… with children » RELAX NG Wins Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:28:13 +0000 http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/relax-wins/#comment-34917 [...] And now, it appears the tide is turning. I couldn’t be happier. Though I want back all the wasted time and effort XML Schema foisted upon us. [...] […] And now, it appears the tide is turning. I couldn’t be happier. Though I want back all the wasted time and effort XML Schema foisted upon us. […]

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